what heads do you guys recommend for my 93 gt?

[cobra20sc]

Are you looking for exaples to proove what I am saying is wrong? Trying to find exact same comparisons isn't as easy as it sounds, I don't own a dyno shop. You can find alot of info backing up what I'm saying, and plenty of what you're saying. I'm not going to cut and paste, it's tacky. LOL With every combo you'd have to tune and change some parts to benefit though, not just change 1 part. I honestly won't put a set new of heads on my motor without doing the cam, I'd end up paying for the valve springs twice. I'll buy a cam/head package get the right valve springs in one shot, not a generic up to whatever lift spring. Do you not think Magazines have an agenda, who pays for adds? Some time (mid 90's) ago I ran into a guy that was building a 4.3 chevy motor to put in a chevette, There was an article on this in Car Craft in the mid 80's, after calling CC umpteen times to ask questions about the install, they finally admitted the build was never completed or actually ran. At least that's what I was told, the guy had no reason to lie to me.
I want to bring an opposite example up. My wifes old 93 GT came with 310cid, a set of worked 66 289 heads 1.84/1.54 valves 54 cc (If you know the heads, they have very small ports) an F303 cam, stock intake,TB, MAF, 5-speed, 3.08 gears. The car made absolutely terrible low end, descent mid range 3500-5000 and gassed out about 5600 up, and was very hard to drive out of the hole. I changed that combo with a quickness. Obviously the small heads and velocity did not help with low end torque, the cam was the culpret. You honestly don't think that cam choice would compensate for the the different velocity of a big head? I actually talked to doug today (EHARacing) and we'll probably be running his brothers big headed 306 on the same dyno as my wifes small headed 331, they'll have the near same accesories,gears, trans, and similiar cams (neither custom), converters are 800RPM different. Different combo's, but may give you a better comparison. I'd bet the'll come out with similiar results only the 306 will HP # higher, even though on paper it would look the 331 is set up for more low end than the 306.

I think at the start of this all I clearly said I was not doubting any of this, it's a new concept to me, probably new to a lot of people and would sure be nice to see it laid out in a nice comparison to show the possibilities of what cam compensation can do for this type of setup. Yeah, mags often/always have hidden agendas and for once I would just like to see an honest to goodness well thought out comparison. Understand its difficult, understand you have to change cam and heads together, understand you have to tune each specific combo. I get all that. But I think there's still value to doing it, improving our methods / advance our technology /make us smarter / building better engine combos / beat the competition.
If you have or obtain a good comparison in the future, great, please share. If not, that's fine to.

 

[AdirondackFox08]

Here's a build from Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords magazine. http://www.musclemustangfastfords.c...7_short_block_cylinder_assembly/photo_17.html
The dyno sheet is right in the link.
They built a 347, with the stock heads, cam, and a GT40 intake manifold. It made 307hp and 401 ft-lbs of torque. They then swapped to a XFI stroker cam, 200cc RHS aluminum heads, and a RPM II intake. This combo made 448 hp and 420 ft- lbs of torque. Does this help at all? I don't really remember what was being asked, lol.

 

[stanginthe11s]

ok, im tired so ill give the quick reasons why gt40 and windsor jr's are the best choice. cheap, can support 400 hp with no problems, good combustion proccess, iron heads make more power, they match the combo he has perfectly. do they match every motor? no but they work for most street engines.

 

[sbeachstang]

Here's a build from Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords magazine. http://www.musclemustangfastfords.c...7_short_block_cylinder_assembly/photo_17.html
The dyno sheet is right in the link.
They built a 347, with the stock heads, cam, and a GT40 intake manifold. It made 307hp and 401 ft-lbs of torque. They then swapped to a XFI stroker cam, 200cc RHS aluminum heads, and a RPM II intake. This combo made 448 hp and 420 ft- lbs of torque. Does this help at all? I don't really remember what was being asked, lol.

Thanks, for the link. We're looking for dyno graphs in the 2500RPM range, which really hard to come by. Most guys aren't dynoing this low. Probably have to ourselves when convenient.

 

[JR4 Motorsports]

ok, im tired so ill give the quick reasons why gt40 and windsor jr's are the best choice. cheap, can support 400 hp with no problems, good combustion proccess, iron heads make more power, they match the combo he has perfectly. do they match every motor? no but they work for most street engines.

Cheap? Maybe not by time you go through them and install good hardware.


400HP? FWHP? in a 302? Maybe ? but much easier with other heads.


Good combustion process? Data please....


Iron heads make more power? In theory? Maybe, due to the whole 'retained heat' idea. But who is casting iron heads with anywhere near the same port shape, valve placement, and combustion chambers? Those attributes far outweigh the 'retained heat' ideas. Benefits of Aluminum? More compression, more timing, less weight, better port designs, draw backs? a little more $$

Do they match his combo? the current combo I guess, but can we assume he wants MORE, that is why he is asking, right? BTW, has the OP been back since he posted the question?

 

[AdirondackFox08]

Thanks, for the link. We're looking for dyno graphs in the 2500RPM range, which really hard to come by. Most guys aren't dynoing this low. Probably have to ourselves when convenient.

Yeah I don't know if I have ever seen a dyno sheet in a magazine or tv show that started that low.

BTW, has the OP been back since he posted the question?

No, lol. Unless he just looked at the thread and didn't post anything. :idk:

 

[stanginthe11s]

OK, heres the deal, a set of gt40 heads go for 200$ a set of springs go for 100$ retainers go for 35$ so if you add shipping you get a set of heads that can support 400 hp for only 400$. there is nothing that needs to be done to accomplish this, we have as well as many many others have been doing this for 20 years. does he want more ? well, dont we all lol, but lets be realistic and realize you can only pull so much out of what he has and the rest of the system is not capable of outflowing the heads so bigger heads are a waste. as for 400 fwhp whats with the ? are you doubting that a 302 can make 400 hp with gt40 or Windsor Jr's? try to understand were not all new to this and 20 years ago we made well over 400 hp with 302's and we did not have all the heads available today, so my question is this, why is it we had the ability to go fast 20 years ago but today with "better" stuff we're finding it harder to go as fast? a motor is only a motor, it can only do so much and nothing you do or make can change that, its highly unlikely anyone will in the near future defy the laws of physics.
the good combustion process comes from the design of the chambers. they are a good design that has been tested for more years than Ive been around and they work, are they the best? no. other than TW heads most all companies still use the same design with small tweaks but understanding what the tweaks are will help you understand what the use for each would be. I could bolt on a set of pro stock heads on my stock 302 but it will not make it better, theres a place for everything and whats make a builder good is when he knows what works and where to focus his efforts.
retained heat.. yes in theory heat is what makes power and also efficiency which is why regular cars run at 200*. of course our race cars would not do too well at that temp due to other stresses. unfortunately in this sport all we have is theory so we have to go by that and real world exp. both have proven to me to be correct and have shown me when aluminum is needed or desired. lets look at what you call benefits of aluminum.... more compression: you gain roughly 2% per point in compression so if you went from 9:1 to 11:1 which is the starting point for needing aluminum heads you would gain 4% hp, not really worth the extra 800$ and of course thats assuming someone wants high compression.
more timing: you defiantly do not want more timing when trying to make more power, in fact more timing takes hp. I know we see gains from going up with timing on alot of cars but thats really showing how inefficient the motor is and its not optimum. so the fact that you can run more timing means the combustion process is not good.
Better port design: Yes and no, it depends on what you mean and what the intended use is. are we to believe that an aluminum head that flows 300 cfm is better than an iron head that flows 300 cfm? you certainly have more options with aluminum ill give you that, but if you have a 350 hp motor and the iron head flows what the engine needs then the aluminum will be of no benefit. there are plenty of iron headed motors going just as fast as aluminum headed ones so really what constitutes "better"?
less weight: no contest, you got me there. but id rather just make more power to make up for the .05 in the qtr.
Dont get me wrong, I'm not against or for either type of head, but I do know how to use each type well and I have been doing so for many years, I'm just not for the new way of thinking when I have repeatedly proven on the track that it is wrong.
You cant build a motor one piece at a time based on the "I may want more some day" idea because you'll never know what more really is. you would be amazed at how many combos are losing big hp and sometimes an old school way of thinking fixes it all. things to look at are us older guys that stay ahead of the game and keep getting faster, and the class racers that take stock motors with gt40 heads and go into the 11's with ease, its all in the combo.

 

[sbeachstang]

I'm beat and ready to go to bed but, just wanted to respond quick. I know people who have dumped $600 after purchase into a set of GT40s to run mid 13's. To run a cam big enouph to get any real horsepower out of them, I'd add Screw in studs. I personally wouldn't put a set of high mileage $200 gt40's on without taking them to a machine shop, where most DIY people will just get burried in the set of heads. I have seen some fast gt40 combo's don't get me wrong, but they have never been a bolt on w/VS off of a 100k mile explorer. I do agree it's about the entire combo. If you could find a fresh set for cheap or already have them, and for a DIY aren't expecting anyreal crazy gains, they'd be fine. I've seen plenty of OTB TWs on mild 302/306s go 12.00s with junk alphabet cams, not so many gt40 combos. JMO

 

[Killer5.0]

im here..lol...okay here is my deal...this car is my hobby...spend alot of time and extra money on it...this is what the engine has now but if something should be changed for a few hundred dollars that would make a better build then ill add it to my list...for instance if the f303 isnt a great cam and it would run better with a e303 or something then ill add it to my list of things to do when i do the heads...same goes for intake etc...i mean i dont want to have to change everything..i will most likely be hitting up new headers, h or x pipe and exhaust after finishing my 5 lug conversion (any suggestions)...but i will be putting heads on next spring so im getting my list ready so i can figure out some costs...i just spent a ton on upgrading brakes and wheels (haven't installed yet so they aren't the ones in my sig)so i dont mind spending some on the engine...would like to keep it no more than $3k if possible

 

[AdirondackFox08]

I would definitely put most of the money towards the heads. They are what really holds back the 302 in power. If you got Afr or trickflows for 1600 or so, you can use the other 1400 for a good intake, hardware and gaskets, cam, etc. Will the engine need to be rebuilt? If you don't have any kind of suspension mods I would do so when you get the added power. So, if you don't, I would put some of the 3 grand into suspension parts. You can have all the power in the world, but if it don't hook, it's useless. Unless you wanna do lots of burnouts....

 

[stanginthe11s]

LOL this is my point exactly, everyone says he should buy a set of AFR heads then you can buy a new intake, cam, tb, maf, injectors, pistons, rods, crank and why not buy dart block too , cmon man, really? how about you just buy what will work with what you have , save the 3000$ and make plenty of power and be happy. unless youre pockets are deep enough to build a 10 sec. + car you dont need 1600$ heads, you cant tell me we've been going 11's and 12's for 50 years and now you need all this high dollar stuff.

 

[Killer5.0]

dont need the best but i want good quality parts. as for suspension i currently have camber plates...lowered...and subframe connecters.

 

[sbeachstang]

$3000 is a descent amount to start with. If you want quality, best performance, and less head aches buy new. Again, I'd buy heads and a custom cam together, probrbly a set of trick flow TWs, even just the 170cc. You'll get better valves, better valve job, the correct springs for your camshaft for about $50 more than Summit racing from your cam designer. The cam does cost more than a alphabet cam , but you'll get better driveability, more power, better quality part, designed for your combo, so you don't have to replace everything else. Most of the time you'll get alot of knowledge, and great customer service from a custom cam designer. you'll spend a couple hundred more between the heads and camshaft and outrun most other guys with similiar combos.

 

[Killer5.0]

where do i look for a custom cam?..im new to this much engine stuff so sorry for all the noob questions.

 

[JR4 Motorsports]

I heard those fast as cast heads were pretty damn good they way they were.

OK, heres the deal, a set of gt40 heads go for 200$ a set of springs go for 100$ retainers go for 35$ so if you add shipping you get a set of heads that can support 400 hp for only 400$. there is nothing that needs to be done to accomplish this, we have as well as many many others have been doing this for 20 years. does he want more ? well, dont we all lol, but lets be realistic and realize you can only pull so much out of what he has and the rest of the system is not capable of outflowing the heads so bigger heads are a waste. as for 400 fwhp whats with the ? are you doubting that a 302 can make 400 hp with gt40 or Windsor Jr's? try to understand were not all new to this and 20 years ago we made well over 400 hp with 302's and we did not have all the heads available today, so my question is this, why is it we had the ability to go fast 20 years ago but today with "better" stuff we're finding it harder to go as fast? a motor is only a motor, it can only do so much and nothing you do or make can change that, its highly unlikely anyone will in the near future defy the laws of physics.
the good combustion process comes from the design of the chambers. they are a good design that has been tested for more years than Ive been around and they work, are they the best? no. other than TW heads most all companies still use the same design with small tweaks but understanding what the tweaks are will help you understand what the use for each would be. I could bolt on a set of pro stock heads on my stock 302 but it will not make it better, theres a place for everything and whats make a builder good is when he knows what works and where to focus his efforts.
retained heat.. yes in theory heat is what makes power and also efficiency which is why regular cars run at 200*. of course our race cars would not do too well at that temp due to other stresses. unfortunately in this sport all we have is theory so we have to go by that and real world exp. both have proven to me to be correct and have shown me when aluminum is needed or desired. lets look at what you call benefits of aluminum.... more compression: you gain roughly 2% per point in compression so if you went from 9:1 to 11:1 which is the starting point for needing aluminum heads you would gain 4% hp, not really worth the extra 800$ and of course thats assuming someone wants high compression.
more timing: you defiantly do not want more timing when trying to make more power, in fact more timing takes hp. I know we see gains from going up with timing on alot of cars but thats really showing how inefficient the motor is and its not optimum. so the fact that you can run more timing means the combustion process is not good.
Better port design: Yes and no, it depends on what you mean and what the intended use is. are we to believe that an aluminum head that flows 300 cfm is better than an iron head that flows 300 cfm? you certainly have more options with aluminum ill give you that, but if you have a 350 hp motor and the iron head flows what the engine needs then the aluminum will be of no benefit. there are plenty of iron headed motors going just as fast as aluminum headed ones so really what constitutes "better"?
less weight: no contest, you got me there. but id rather just make more power to make up for the .05 in the qtr.
Dont get me wrong, I'm not against or for either type of head, but I do know how to use each type well and I have been doing so for many years, I'm just not for the new way of thinking when I have repeatedly proven on the track that it is wrong.
You cant build a motor one piece at a time based on the "I may want more some day" idea because you'll never know what more really is. you would be amazed at how many combos are losing big hp and sometimes an old school way of thinking fixes it all. things to look at are us older guys that stay ahead of the game and keep getting faster, and the class racers that take stock motors with gt40 heads and go into the 11's with ease, its all in the combo.

OK, so $400 for your GT40, now add disassemble, clean, VJ, reassemble, and that's what another 3-400, Like sbeachstang said, screw in studs, so about $150+ for studs and machine work.that's now $950, but you still have stock valves and heads.
Unless you have to use stock heads or stock material heads, or you have all the tools and the labor is free, WHY use them? for a few more $, relatively speaking, you are way ahead of the game. And who has really said that they wish they had less HP? We always want more

 

[Killer5.0]

so to clarify right now its either afr165's or trickflow TW 170's? and a custom cam setup? i dont want to have to disassemble and clean anything i want new stuff if that helps narrow it down.

 

[AdirondackFox08]

Camshaft innovations does custom cams. I've heard they are good, at least I believe that's the name. All I am saying is if you buy better heads, it will be easier to get good hp numbers. And like John and sbeachstang were saying, there's no sense in buying decent heads and paying about the same amount of money for great heads to get them redone.
I couldn't tell you which heads to get, I "think" the twisted wedge heads are a little bit cheaper. I haven't seen any mags with those heads dyno'd or anybody in forums saying how much they picked up with them.

 

[sbeachstang]

I use Camsfaft Innovations, I know there is a little bit of a wait right now, but it's worth it. I have not delt with any of there others, but have had no need too. TW's miles above the AFR 165's.

 

[dsblk93gt]

I'm beat and ready to go to bed but, just wanted to respond quick. I know people who have dumped $600 after purchase into a set of GT40s to run mid 13's. To run a cam big enouph to get any real horsepower out of them, I'd add Screw in studs. I personally wouldn't put a set of high mileage $200 gt40's on without taking them to a machine shop, where most DIY people will just get burried in the set of heads. I have seen some fast gt40 combo's don't get me wrong, but they have never been a bolt on w/VS off of a 100k mile explorer. I do agree it's about the entire combo. If you could find a fresh set for cheap or already have them, and for a DIY aren't expecting anyreal crazy gains, they'd be fine. I've seen plenty of OTB TWs on mild 302/306s go 12.00s with junk alphabet cams, not so many gt40 combos. JMO

I ran mid 13's with a stock 88LX and slicks and only 3.27 gears/pulleys...they need to hand the keys over and get a driver mod ASAP!

There are guys running LOW 12's with untouched GT40P heads and STOCK cams. The stock cam is 10x better than the wrong cam, but way too many people toss the stock cam out of the equation before they think about it.

Actually there is a guy with a Explorer motor in Corral running 11.9's with a stock HO cam being the only big change.

 

[JR4 Motorsports]

I ran mid 13's with a stock 88LX and slicks and only 3.27 gears/pulleys...they need to hand the keys over and get a driver mod ASAP!

There are guys running LOW 12's with untouched GT40P heads and STOCK cams. The stock cam is 10x better than the wrong cam, but way too many people toss the stock cam out of the equation before they think about it.

Actually there is a guy with a Explorer motor in Corral running 11.9's with a stock HO cam being the only big change.

There is a fairly large consensus that when using "stock" heads that the HO cam is the one to use. I guess Ford did their homework on that one